Sonntag, 17. Mai 2015

Tri gensa


Quayque ne dar som member ios Sambahsa Yahoo grupp, ho just lisen sem proposens qua sont ter ed ne waito hin id accepten ios administrator kay scribe mieno mayn de id proposen os nudes tik tri grammatical gensa. Ka nudtor os sambahsa, mehno aproposs od id bahsa ghehdt bihe simplihsen, bet shayad ne est possible simplihes quanto (ka actual nudtor esiet also duskwol change quanto ye un wahid tid), ob to, me tanko tik ep todghi proposen de ia tri gensa.



Sei spehco id table iom pronomens (yaschi gnohn ka "id table ios dekhschat"... joc ;-) ), vido od id probleme est od id dative ed id genitive ios neutral est id sam kam id dative ed id genitive ios masculin. Un makdour kay nudes tik tri grammatical gensa ghehdiet ses nudes semper neutral pro ia falls quan anghen "naudht" id indeterminat bet change ia dative ed genitive ios masculin med ia dative ed genitive ios actual indeterminat (ed ne nudes id indeterminat pet). To maynt od id dative ed id genitive ios nov masculin esient id actual pro id indeterminat. Esiet pro me interessant sayge mathalan "id mensc" ed "id person". Ne esiet sem confusion, ob est evident od "mensc" ed "person" ne sont jects. Hatta quan leitiet de anthopomorphic objects (kam leikus), to esiet clar ob id contexte —anghen poitt mathalan sayge med id actual systeme "id mensc" menxu bahnd de un mensclik leiku, contra "el mensc" quel bayght tod leiku. Quayque tod distinction kwehct interessant in id theoria, in id praxis est sambahsa un bahsa do quod anghen bilhassa kwehrt tarjems, ed dat tod caracteristique ne est present in ia natural bahsas, est baygh improbable od anghen dehlct tarjmes talg situation wahid-ye nudend un extra genos.



Ithan, esient ia sekwent exempels (ulter "id mensc", "id person", "id anghen"):



  • Io dahm un buk ei studyent (nov dative neutral pro "veut" indeterminat). Io dahm un buk al studyent (nov dative masculin).


  • Vido id studyent / vido ia studyents. (genos neutral).
  • Id buk al studyent (nov genitive masculin) / id buk ios studyent (genitive neutral instet indeterminat). Etc.



Anghen naudhiet dar ia werds pro "who". Schowi: quel/qui. To ne mayniet od esient quar grammatical gensa, ob est lyt exageren mehne od tik dwo werds forment un grammatical genos. Ta werds (quel, qui) sont druve-ye ia werds qua anghen naudht, meis quem id hol indeterminat genos.



Sont bet alya falls in qua anghen baht to, mathalan: Sei anghen eiskwiet kwehre to, el ghehdiet paurske kam. Her est un meis stylistic sibia. Anghen tehrbiet repetihes "anghen" instet "el" in tod fall. In id actual neud os sambahsa, "anghen" est yaschi un synonym pro "el". In id dictionar "anghen" maynt "person", bet anghen (iter) neudt tod werd yaschi quasi ka pronomen, hatta destull opser quem "el" in normal conversations. Mehno od to est un baygh interessant sibia pro un bahsa, shayad hatta interessanter quem id existence os un quart genos. 

Ye alyo gon, id possessive pronomen "ids", ghehldiet pro bo neutral ed indeterminat.

Id preposition "os" esiet "es/em" pro id masculin. Neid indeterminat.

De id vocalic euphonisation ne bahm, ob ta sont tik optional endens. In theoria ia ghehdient reman kam ia sont. Id hol systeme kwehkiet general-ye meis economic quem nun ed ho id pondos od id ne esiet minter precis quem id actual systeme (ed id table samt ia pronomens esiet minter dekhschatwent). ;-)


Kommentare:

  1. Sellgumt do id (anter) inactive Sambahsa Yahoo Grupp ! :-). In theoria, "el" poitt ses nudt quantloc, bet ne est baygh precis. Vasya orarya bahsas ne hieb tod "indeterminato" genos bet conscicim id debato de "li/sxi/gxi" in Esperanto, ed tun io dohlg vergihes id. Sei "id" est nudt pro animals ed hatta pro "aungenos" anghens, to kwehct kam un mank os respect.

    AntwortenLöschen
  2. Dank ob id accepten do id grupp! Kam est "id" un mank os respect? Est id definihen article "the" in englisch un mank os respect? Est "das" in "das Kind" un mank os respect? Sekwent tod logique, ma est neid mank os respect od id dative ed id genitive ios masculin sont ia sam kam ta ios neutral? To deict clar-ye id influence iom natural bahsas (quo pehndo in aurdhen). Mehno od est evident od anghen ghehdt bahe in sambahsa med minter gensa aun luses necessar-ye precision. Ne dar ghahbo ab quer gwehmt tod "purisme" ios bahsa...

    AntwortenLöschen
  3. Sont mathalan sem leuds qui ne hant (ne vole habe) sem definihto genos, kam el yun Sasha. Ob sieno "mutagenos", el buit aggress wild-ye in un bus; els attaquant hat piten brande gwiv el ! Noroc-ye, el hat ganist. Dat elschi est conlanger, hams yisen al un vanschcarte (pati in Sambahsa : http://conlang.org/cms/wp-content/uploads/Sasha-letters.pdf ). Nudes "id" pro menscens daht id pondos od ne i aymos menscens, sontern jects. Tod controverse exist diutos in Esperanto ed vergihskwim to quando ho invent Sambahsa : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sambahsa#Declensions

    AntwortenLöschen
  4. Samstehmo con Olivier. Kamo id sambahsa system quar gensen. Id traditional system con tri aut dwo gensa neti dehbht id moderne mund.

    AntwortenLöschen
  5. Ghehldt tieno mayno yaschi pro Esperanto ? :-)

    AntwortenLöschen
  6. Anghen ne naudht bahe Esperanto kay habe tod mayn. Id neutral genos est pro jects, nukta, end. Poskwo, naudhmos un weidos ne nudes id masculin genos quan ne gnohmos id sex un persons.

    AntwortenLöschen
  7. "Neutral" est tik un grammatic categoria. Ne est oino politic. Quan anghen neudt id "indeterminat" genos, to ne necessar-ye maynt od id person ne volt habe un definihto genos, kam id exempel os Sasha. Id indeterminat genos ne baht semject de id personal situation al person. Ithan, "neutral" au "indeterminat" ghehdent mayne quodquid quo id creator ios sambahsa volt. Sei un genos es nuden tik pro jects au tik pro animen sesi, to est id decision ios creator. Anghen ghehdiet definihes id "neutral" kam id grammatical genos quod anghen nudes, quan id genos ne est gnohn, ne est important, au ne exist. Kwe ne ter persons in id mund qui pehndent se ka "asexual"? Kwe ne ter persons qui mehnent od ia jects stahalnt respect? (Kam ti leuds qui hant un ject, mathalan un auto, ka samlyogh ed sont enlieubhen in id). Kwe ta discussions import pro un bahsa? Kwe est preferibler uces un alter set iom pronomens quem ses efficienter in id nuden iom actual pronomens? Sei anghen neudt id "neutral" pro persons, anghen dar ne neudiet id masculin ghi pro i. Ne peito impose tod idee, tik kwehct clar pro me, od anghen ghehdt nudes minter grammatical sibias ed dar ses gohd preten, kam est yaschi manifesten in maung natural bahsas.

    AntwortenLöschen
  8. Tamam. Alyo sabab de habe maung zamihrs ios 3t person est pro tarjems. To quasi semper permitt tarjmes aun luses precision, ni id maynen ios dialogos. Pro glewos, io hieb inventen un "elfisk" bahsa samt tik dwo 3t person zamihrs : animat/inanimat. To eet un coschmar in tarjems, io dohlg semper addihes precision kam "ia gwen", "is wir", au ia nams im protagonisten.

    AntwortenLöschen
    Antworten
    1. Maaf ob ne habiem antwohrden pre. Normal-ye Gmail baht mi quan est un nov antwehrd her, bet nun id kwehrt to ne meis.
      "To eet un coschmar in tarjems, io dohlg semper addihes precision kam "ia gwen", "is wir", au ia nams im protagonisten." To est neid coschmar. Ye alya bahsas anghen bahiet tik "gwen" au "wir" aun article!
      Zowngschie, ne ho bahn de habe tik ta dwo pronomens. Hatta aun un genos minter, habiet sambahsa dar maung meis pronomens quem in maung moderne bahsas, bet dar maung alats kay expremes se precis-ye ed aun problemes.

      Löschen
  9. Lakin, kamo id expression table ios dekhschat.

    AntwortenLöschen
    Antworten
    1. Ya, ego yaschi. ;-) Tod table abdekhschat quidam. Ego ghi bihsit ab tod table ops abdekhschaten pre od io inkapim uces sambahsa. Nun od woidim gohder id table (ed id bahsa), mehno od sont destull maung werds ed concepts qua sont aunbelos, inclusive id extra genos. Nun woidim ma sem jects in natural bahsas ne survivent id wakt ed ma nies actual bahsas sont mutawassit simpler quem ir predecessors (ed quem sambahsa, quod est quasi un veut bahsa) ;-)

      Löschen
    2. Ghehdo yaschi imagine un sambahsa, samt quar genos bet aun dative au genitive: "dahm id buk ad Paul", "id buk os Paul", "id page os buk", etc. Nun est difference inter "os/om/em, etc." ed id genitive quasi mer-ye esthetic...

      Löschen
    3. Bet Olivier kamt od eys bahsa hat cort werds ed expressions. Sei kams meis analytic bashas, ja gnohs id bahsa ios planete.... Sont bahsas pro vasya gusta...

      Löschen
  10. Ego ne kamo uces esber, bet ghehdo sigwre od quando anghen neudt ops id "dekhschatstable" kay tarjmes do Sambahsa, anghen euct id jaldi. In theoria, id indeterminat poitt bihe nudt pro vasya werds, lakin Sambahsa leusiet precision. Mae myehrste od id table est id sam pro 3t person zamihrs ed definiht articles, ed pleist endens sont ia sams pro alter pronomens (interrogative, relative demonstrative). Sei io compare con Esperanto mathalan, est ya neid "dekhschatstable", sontern kohlen dekhschats : "la" hat neter plural ni accusative, ne kam "li, sxi, gxi", qua hant tik oin plural (ili), "kiu" (quis) ghehldt bo ka relative ed interrogative, bet ne "kio" (?), yunyun... Dayir dative, id dru "atav" os Sambahsa ne hieb dative, id nud id sam werdo pro accusative ed dative : http://www.europalingua.eu/ideopedia/index.php5?title=Angat%C3%A9 . Lakin, to brighit confusion ed gwieure. Itak ho reintroduct id dative quando ho invent Sambahsa.

    AntwortenLöschen
  11. Mae myerhste, od id lingwa de planeta, quayque id ne hat un dekhschatstable, hat yaschi quar gensa...

    AntwortenLöschen